The Smart Investor's Guide to Mortgages

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David:

Hey everyone, this is Dave Bitton, co-founder and CMO here at DoorLoop. I'm going to be hosting this podcast today and I am super excited to welcome Robbie Chrisman onto the show. Robbie, welcome.

Robbie:

Hey, thanks for having me, David.

David:

We are going to be discussing all things mortgages, which is Robbie's expertise. Robbie actually got his finance degree from the University of Texas and has worked at numerous companies and banks in the mortgage industry, including, but not limited to, People's National Bank in Colorado, RPM and Bay Equity in San Francisco Bay Area and SoFi, where he became Director of Capital Markets and helped create the residential mortgage division. He's also worked with TMS and FinTech startup, Rivos. I'm not even sure if I'm pronouncing that right but you'll tell me in a second. And is now the head of content at Mortgage Capital Trading in San Diego. So Robbie, how do you pronounce that last one? Is it Rivos?

Robbie:

It's Rivos but they no longer exist, so I don't think it matters anymore.

David:

Okay. Okay. Well, the general idea is you have crazy extensive experience in this field, so if you can just start us off and tell us a bit more about yourself and why you love this industry so much.

Robbie:

I'm a mortgage lifer. I started out with my first internships in high school and I would take the BART train at 4:30 in the morning to the East Bay from Marin County where I'm from in the North Bay and rode with all sorts of unsavory characters. But it was to get tutelage in mortgage banking. There's a lot of different roles within a mortgage lender and that's only one part of the ecosystem. There's companies that help with the hedging and analytics. There's end investors, there's brokers, there's servicers, there's all different types of hands in the cookie jar, if you will.

And I think what I would say about why I love it, and that's a strong term, but it is a great career and there's a ton of fantastic people that work in the industry. What's great about it is it helps put people into homes and achieve the dream of home ownership. And I would say with all the regulations that have come about since the financial crisis, it's not a predatory lending business. It's meant to make safe, sound loans and put people into homes where they can start to build equity and build wealth.

David:

Yeah. So I think there was a term from '08, '09. What was it? That's when we got into trouble. What was it called? NINJA Loans, they called it? You ever heard of that?

Robbie:

Yeah, no income. Actually, I remember even before that there were stated income, stated asset loans where you could say, "I work in a mariachi band and I make $300,000." [inaudible 00:03:06] the furthest extent of proof it would be you'd have to send a photo of you in a sombrero and they'd say, "Here's your loan on a million-dollar house."

David:

Yeah, "No income, no job, no assets, you're approved. 0% down." And then we had a recession. Yeah, I wonder why. So yeah, the mortgage industry has changed dramatically over the last years, I'm sure, especially because of COVID. So most of the listeners here are landlords, real estate investors or property managers looking to either refinance or get mortgages to buy more rental property investments. So overall, can you give us just a high level overview today, 2023, on the market today?

Robbie:

Sure. And I'd actually like to start with the pandemic, where the Fed decided to pump a ton of easy money into the economy. Rates went down, people said, "I can afford more home." They started purchasing in mass. Maybe they wanted to get out of their apartment, get away from other people that might have COVID. They started buying homes. Prices went way up. And we've all seen more recently this FOMO of, hey, rates have risen as the Federal Reserve has gone about this tightening campaign and home values have shot up over the last couple of years as there was all this demand. Right now, in 2023, affordability remains a big issue for a lot of people. Rates are still high. Those prices haven't quite come down on those homes that appreciated at record rates over the last couple of years. Although we are starting to see some softening in certain metros.

It all comes down to supply and demand. And the big issue right now is for those people that locked into a 3% 30 year fixed rate mortgage, there's no incentive to refinance. There's no incentive to move. And so there's less homes hitting the market as a result. And for builders that are expected to build homes to match demand, it's expensive. They're not getting the margin that they would hope for and so they're not building it at the pace that the economy would hope they are. It's tough out there. But we are starting to see some softening. And recently, with the Silicon Valley Bank and other bank failures, we have seen rates come down. Maybe not to the point people would hope but they've certainly come down markedly.

David:

Oh, interesting. Okay. I mean, wow. We can touch on so many of those points but it's funny that you're saying some markets are softening. I live ... We're here in Miami. It has not softened at all. People are still flocking here, they're still moving here. Half the people that join our company move from other states, specifically New York and California. They're still flocking here. So everything is pretty high in demand here still but we'll see what happens. I didn't have this really prepared but we can get into SVB for a second. So how has the collapse of SVB affected rates and why?

Robbie:

Rates have gone down as a result of that. But I would say generally speaking, the SVB collapse and what's going on in the banking industry has made banks more reluctant to take on risk. And as a result, that's created overall tightening of financial conditions out there, which the Fed had hoped for in raising rates. And so by banks almost acting as this tightener of credit rather than the Fed acting as a tightener of credit, it's allowed for rates to become depressed. And that's purely a function of the market saying the Fed doesn't need to raise rates as high as we thought they were going to. Because in theory, the market has all future expectations priced in, the Fed was expected to raise rates, without the Fed having to raise rates, the current market rates have been able to come down a little bit. That's the simplest way I could put it.

David:

It's pretty funny because I feel like we never learn our lessons in humanity. And every 10 years it seems like there's another big correction. We just don't learn. We tighten things and then we get more relaxed and then things happen. Everyone gets greedy, they all try to make more money, they cut corners and stuff like this happens. So let me ask you, let's dive in here. So for people listening, let's say they're just starting off with their first rental property or they've already bought a few but they're looking to get a few more. What should people know about getting a mortgage for an investment property? Is it a different process than getting a mortgage for your home, for example?

Robbie:

It's not necessarily a different process, but I would say it's certainly more ... it's a more expensive process and it may take a little longer. And that's because if you're a lender, you're thinking, hey, if there's a borrower out there and they have a primary residence or then they have an investment property, if something happens to their job, or heaven forbid, they have stopped making payments, they're going to stop making payments on the investment property before their own primary residence. And so as a result, it being viewed as a riskier property, it is going to have a higher interest rate.

Now, I was thinking about this question before we came on and my advice, and take this with a grain of salt, I'm probably not as expert as you're chalking me up to be, but it almost behooves people to get an investment property before a primary residence. And I say that because if you get an investment property and you can prove cashflow on it for a couple of years on your tax returns, you then have that additional income that you can take toward a primary residence. Versus on a primary residence, you are just going to be making mortgage payments on it and it's going to be a monthly debt payment that companies take into their underwriting standards. Which when you're trying to get an investment property and there's that much of a higher rate, can make it that much more difficult. But in terms of the underwriting process, no, it just depends if you qualify with that higher rate.

David:

Got it. Okay. And when I got a mortgage, they were offering me 7/1 ARM, 10/1 ARM, which stands for adjustable rate mortgages that adjust after seven or 10 years. 15 year fix, 30 year fix. Interest only, non-interest only. Are all those same options available also for investment properties for business?

Robbie:

Generally speaking, yes. The difference is you're less likely to be able to take cash out when you refinance an investment property. Companies these days are competing for borrower business any way they can because there's a lot less volume out there than there was in 2020 and 2021. So companies are actually looking for new and creative products to help out borrowers. So I think your audience would be pleasantly surprised at just how many options are out there when it comes to types of loans for investment properties.

David:

Amazing. And you used to work with ... is it pronounced SoFi?

Robbie:

It's SoFi, but I always joked that if you said finance, it should be SoFi, but that's not that [inaudible 00:09:44].

David:

Okay. So I've been seeing a new wave of companies entering this market. I feel like SoFi is probably one of those innovators, leaders in there. I recently used Rocket Mortgage and it was very different than the traditional route of going into a bank, filling out papers, faxing your paperwork. It's all online now. So is SoFi online leading the way in innovative new technology services for getting a mortgage [inaudible 00:10:11] just make the process easier?

Robbie:

My fellow shareholders might not be so happy to hear this but I think Rocket Mortgage is leading the way.

David:

Okay.

Robbie:

Rocket Mortgage has invested billions of dollars to make this click button, get mortgage, closer and closer to a reality. And obviously I think the caveat there would be the mortgage process is going to be very similar across companies in terms of the documents that you need to provide and the underwriting and credit standards that are required. However, the more this process can be digitized and automated, and obviously some people do want more human touch. Like I know your mother wanted [inaudible 00:10:48] to call her versus you said, so let me just upload my documents and call it a day. And so the process is going to boil down to the same documents that are required. Some companies will do a better job of being able to get you to closing quicker and I do think Rocket is at the forefront of that.

David:

Yeah. And for those that don't know, so Robbie was kind enough to invite me to join him on his podcast. So we discuss Rocket Mortgage extensively if you want ... We're not going to get into it here, but if you want to learn more, definitely check out his podcast. How do they check you out? What's it called?

Robbie:

Chrisman Commentary Daily Mortgage News. Just search Daily Mortgage News on any platform you get your podcast from. A lot of different interviews on there with various industry experts to give you a holistic view of what's going on in the mortgage marketplace.

David:

That's awesome. Yeah, so it's daily. You're releasing daily?

Robbie:

Monday to Friday. And I am on the West Coast so the market opens at 5:30 AM Pacific and I have to have most of it recorded by then. So rest in peace to my sleep schedule.

David:

Wow, good for you for keeping up with that. So is there anything people should do in preparation of getting a mortgage? So I know for me, for my personal mortgage, I was paying off all credit cards, lower my debt to credit ratio, get my credit score up. Is it a similar kind of process and tips when getting one for an investment property?

Robbie:

You hit on important points there. I would add, my economist brain goes to calculating my return on my current investments versus what I expect to get on my mortgage. At what point is it worth it? Because right now there's a negative delta when it comes to buying a home versus renting in terms of your monthly payment. So you say, well, if the same house is going to cost me a thousand dollars more with a mortgage than it would if I were to rent this house, I need to be making up those thousand dollars in leveraging up to get this mortgage. Because the economics behind it would be if I have $100,000 to invest, and I can make 7% on that, $7,000 this year, versus that $100,000 can get me a $500,000 house and 7% return on that house would be $35,000. That's a $28,000 difference.

So obviously there's other costs associated with it and there's a lot of joys of home ownership. The water heater goes out at 2:00 AM and you're liable for that [inaudible 00:13:02] the electricity box breaks or [inaudible 00:13:06]. But there are a lot of considerations, especially right now when rates are so high, that make mortgages less appealing than they would be otherwise. And I'm going to preempt one of the other questions you might ask me about is now a good time to get a mortgage? And I would always say, yes. It's better own real estate sooner rather than later. And for many of us out there, the rates can be refinanced when rates come down here. We're obviously at a high point in the market cycle in terms of what rates are but rates will come down over time.

David:

It's interesting that you said that. You said yes, buy now, real estate historically tends to go up obviously. And it's very similar to stock market investing. The classic line is, "Time in the market always beats timing the market." So people are always waiting for the rates to go down, prices to go down, but you're trying to time the market and you're never going to be able to get in the market. Timing the market is more powerful. So definitely agree with that. And when these underwriters, which are so strict, oh, they just pull everything out of the closet to try to find everything on you, is it a very similar process document request for personal versus business?

Robbie:

It is a similar request. And actually, if you're going to run it as an LLC, it doesn't mean that you're exempt from underwriting standards and they're going after your business income. I guess, I'm sorry, the difference there would be if you're a sole proprietor, they're going to look at your business income. If you're a W-2 employee, they're not going to. But at the end of the day, if somebody stops making payments, they're going to look for an individual to go after. So it doesn't matter if you're a sole proprietor or an LLC in that sense. And I guess shout out to the underwriters here because they're just doing their job and they want to make sure that the people are not defaulting like they were in the last financial crisis. And I do think that we've seen foreclosures and defaults come way down in the last 10 years.

David:

So you half answered my next question. So let's see, so my question is, are you still personally liable and need to personally guarantee the loan if it's for business purposes, like you're buying an investment?

Robbie:

Correct. Because at the end of the day, like I said, they need an individual to be responsible for who's going to be making the payments.

David:

Okay. Okay. Got it. And so it seems like what you're saying is they ask for a lot of documents, they want to see ... it's pretty much they just want to see your income and your expenses and trying to get a big picture overview of who you are financially, what's your financial story like, and if you can afford it or not. That sounds like what they're doing. Yes?

Robbie:

Pretty much it.

David:

Okay. So let me ask you, are there any pitfalls to be aware of, any dangers out there, any tricks or tactics that people can get you on that you need to be aware of and double check your contracts, dot your Is, cross your Ts?

Robbie:

I think there are two and it's not exactly what you're thinking. The first would be is the property valued correctly? How is it valued? The appraiser, more often than not, is going to come in somewhere near the sales price, but it's a sour surprise for a lot of people if they thought a property was worth X amount and it doesn't appraise [inaudible 00:16:23]. That can throw off the entire process. Same thing with inspections. You get an inspection and it turns up crazy black mold or something that you didn't think was there, that throws a huge wrench in the process and is going to make you need to recalibrate. The second thing, and this isn't tricky at all, it's can you repay. For a lot of us, we want the maximum house that we can afford. At the same time, you're stretching yourself thin and that gives you a much slimmer margin if something goes wrong in your personal life. Stretching less and being able to have a much lower debt to income ratio when you take on the property is going to benefit you in the long run.

David:

Yeah, I help a lot of friends when they're trying to buy their first home or even investment properties. And the first thing I say is, "You want to own your home. You don't want it to own you." And they tell me, "Yeah, no, but it's great. I make 10,000 a month. The mortgage payment's only 4,000 a month, so I have 6,000 left." I was like, "Have you thought about HOA? Have you thought about taxes, utilities, maintenance?" Gosh, I mean, I own a home for four years now and it is nonstop. So people I think forget to budget and forecast how much they're actually going to spend when they look at the big picture of owning a home or investment property. So definitely need to look into that. So my next question for you is, this is always a tough one, how do you get the best rates? Are you using a mortgage broker, just going online and shopping around? Well, what's the deal here?

Robbie:

My advice to friends that ask me this question, and I do have a lot of friends that ask it, I say, "Go through your personal banking relationships." If you were a client of a private bank, they're much more likely to be able to offer you a lower rate because they're interested in having you as a customer for life than if you go out there and shop around. And actually we had seen that there were these online marketplaces for rates. Zillow would be a prominent one, where on the right-hand side it would show you all these different lenders and the rates they would offer and you say, "Oh, that's a good-looking rate." The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is actually cracking down on that right now because it turned out, on a lot of these websites, the rates that were shown were paid for by these companies and the companies with small [inaudible 00:18:32].

David:

Wow.

Robbie:

So that's really changing. My advice is to go through your personal bank if you have one. If not, shop around a little bit. People love to shop for auto insurance rates. A mortgage is a much bigger monthly payment. It behooves you to make a couple different phone calls, apply with a couple of different companies and see what they can offer you.

David:

It's funny, this is the number one biggest purchase 99% of the population will ever make in their entire lives. And it drives me crazy how much people rush through it. Do your homework, have patience, do your research. You're talking about lifetime of payments. So you mentioned that it might be better to go with your bank that you're currently banking in. And that's exactly what I did. I went with Schwab and they offered me great rates. I had a great relationship already with my account manager. So it made the process a lot easier. Does it make underwriting any easier? Is there less risk for them because they have your history or it doesn't really matter?

Robbie:

In theory, you would be underwritten ... your financial picture is the same wherever you go. They just have a jumpstart on it in terms of saying, "We already have these assets, you don't need to provide those to us. We see your financial picture before you even applied." Now I should add-

David:

Got it.

Robbie:

-in the search for the best rate, a lot of companies are going to be very close on rate. People are looking at the same screens in terms of prices ... the capital markets folks are looking at the same screens for pricing every day. It just comes down to the margin of different companies, which is normally only an eighth of a percentage point or so different. A mortgage really is a commodity. And I want to tell you from my personal experience, I went with a company that I knew the executive team and I trusted and I valued that relationship. And at the end of the day, if rate's not going to be that different, it's worth working with someone or a team of people that you trust, that you enjoy, that can talk you through the process, walk you through it, that make you feel comfortable and provide you an enjoyable overall experience.

David:

Yeah, I think trust is that big keyword you mentioned there because a lot of people just don't trust these people. I think it's similar to, I don't want to say car dealership, but they advertise this very low rate and price online. Then when you step into the dealership or you speak to them, they make you sign this 200 page contract and they try to squeeze some hidden fees in there. So is that common in the industry? Are they saying, "Oh, we'll give you the lowest rate," but then they'll hit you with points last second? Is that something to be aware of?

Robbie:

Every company is required to provide a loan estimate very early on in the process where they estimate all their costs through closing. And you should receive that early enough on where you don't feel like the wool is being pulled over your eyes and there are hidden costs later on in the process.

David:

Okay. So the easiest way to compare different rates is to get that loan estimate from every company and then that's how you really compare apples to apples?

Robbie:

There you go.

David:

Okay. Got it. And is there a website similar to kayak.com looking for the best flight deals? Is there a website for mortgages to look for the best rates online that combines all of them in one?

Robbie:

That's where you and I need to talk offline and go to our next [inaudible 00:21:29].

David:

Oh, that's where we're starting?

Robbie:

I'm serious. It does seem like that's the logical progression is a mortgage marketplace. Because in the secondary market, after a lender gives you a loan, they'll turn around and sell it to an end investor. And the rise of these marketplaces are becoming more and more prevalent, which is allowing for more pricing transparency, better pricing, and it helps borrowers at the end of the day. Like I mentioned before though, a lot of these websites that did exist, and I name checked Zillow there, the CFPB is cracking down on them because the rates shown were paid for to be shown rather than being a true mortgage marketplace. So I do think this will come about and be much more democratic in the next couple of years. I cannot give you a name of one right now that will still likely exist in its current iteration in a few years or so.

David:

Wow. Wow. Okay. Let's definitely chat offline. So when you are looking for a mortgage, the first thing a lot of them want to do is pull your credit report. Does that start affecting you? Does it lower your score when people start doing that? Is it like a hard pull, soft pull, or does it all just get bundled into one because the credit agencies know you're shopping for a home right now?

Robbie:

Most times it will be a hard pull. Some companies will tell you that it's a soft pull, but in terms of their ability to offer you an official purchase approval, you're going to have to do a hard pull. And I think-

David:

Got it.

Robbie:

-the rule of thumb there is more than five or six hard pulls on your credit over the last, I don't know if it's 18 months or 24 months, at that point it begins to start affecting your credit. But until then, it won't. I do think that you are able to request a copy of your creditor report and you can provide that to mortgage companies as long as it falls within a certain time period where they don't have to run another hard pull on your credit.

David:

Oh, that's a great idea. Okay, cool. And so there's so many different types of mortgages again, and I understand there's different stories to every person, but generally you have the adjustable rate mortgages, you have the 15 year, the 30 year you have interest only, non-interest only, jumbo loan, non-jumbo loan, conforming. I mean, there's so many different terminologies here. Is there anything simple that you just recommend for most people?

Robbie:

My recommendation is, in a high rate environment like we have today, ARM rates are going to be more attractive. And the typical arm is a 7/1 ARM, which means that the rate is fixed for the first seven years of that loan. And in an environment like this where you might think a 30-year fixed rate is so high, you can get into an ARM for the next seven years. I am not a big betting man. I'm not big on crystal balls in the mortgage industry. But I will go out there and say I think over the next seven years rates will come down at some point. And so it benefits you. When rates are low, as we saw in 2020 and 2021, 30-year fixed is the way to go and look at ... A lot of my friends right now have 3% 30-year fixed rates and they're happy with that.

David:

Wow.

Robbie:

The reason I would say go with a 15-year term is if you want to repay it more quickly, and if you can afford a higher monthly payment, that's worth it. And interest only is very niche but it's for those that think that their other investments are worth staying in rather than pulling money out, liquidating it and putting it into a down payment for a house.

David:

Okay. That is excellent advice. Do you recommend people use a mortgage broker or a website like Rocket Mortgage?

Robbie:

There are thousands of brokers out there and there are thousands of websites out there. I would actually lean more towards many people's real estate agents have companies that they have relationships with. And it's worth talking to your real estate agent. Additionally, like I said before, talk to a few lenders to see if there's a personality fit as a mortgage is a commodity and you should enjoy who you're working with. There is something to be said, in terms of me talking with real estate agents, they like working with local lenders rather than large national banks because they feel like they can get pre-approval letters on the weekend. There's quick turnaround times. Versus I've heard horror stories of big national lenders taking months and months and months and dragging the process.

David:

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, dragging the process seems like a norm sometimes in this industry. So we spoke about rates that you think they might be coming down in a few years. Historically, rates are not bad right now, right? I mean, what are they right now? I don't even know. 5%, six?

Robbie:

I'll call a 30-year fixed rate mortgage around 6% right now.

David:

Oh, okay. So I mean, definitely not the lowest. Yeah. So I can definitely see you coming down. Okay, cool.

Robbie:

Not the lowest. But we need to remember, in the early 1980s, a 30-year fixed rate mortgage was 14 to 18%.

David:

Exactly.

Robbie:

Big difference. We have recency bias here where people say, "Oh yeah, 30-year fixed rate mortgage at 3%, that's amazing. I'm missing out. I've got this big FOMO." I don't think we could ever see 3% 30-year fixed rates again. That was a huge anomaly with the Fed obviously overplaying their hand and dumping-

David:

Agreed.

Robbie:

-billions of dollars into the financial system.

David:

Yeah, yeah, definitely agreed. So when should someone refinance? Is it only a question of if rates go down, then you refinance?

Robbie:

The general rule of thumb with refinancing is if prevailing mortgage rates are 1% or more lower than your current mortgage rate, it's worth looking into. Now there's other reasons to refinance. Maybe you want to change the term of your loan, maybe you want to take money out of the house in a cash-out refinance. There's various considerations there. Maybe you're not enjoying working with your servicer, the company that collects your monthly payments. Maybe companies are offering specials in terms of being able to provide some closing cost benefits, whatever it might be. But generally the rule of thumb is 1% or lower prevailing rates than your current rate, it's worth it.

David:

Got it. Okay. And we got about two or three questions left here. So let's see. So points or no points, and explain what do points mean exactly.

Robbie:

So a point is 1% of the mortgage loan, two points would be 2% of the mortgage loan. So on a $300,000 loan, one point would be $3,000, two points would be $6,000. And if you pay points, so you pay one point, $3,000, that will lower your rate by a certain amount. Now it might be an eighth of a percentage point, it might be a quarter of a percentage point. It varies based on the market and the pricing on the stack of rates. But generally speaking, the longer you are going to be in your home, the more worth it it is to pay points.

David:

Correct.

Robbie:

But points will lower your monthly payment. And the longer period of time that your monthly payment is lowered, the more it's worth it. I think generally speaking, seven years is about the break even. So if you're planning on selling your home within seven years, don't pay [inaudible 00:28:11] if you're planning on owning your home for longer than seven years, points are worth looking into.

David:

Yeah, exactly. And also if you're refinancing, take in mind it's not just a simple process. There are fees involved, so it does cost money to refinance, maybe points and stuff like that. So there's a lot of math that needs to go into it before you just decide to refinance. Correct?

Robbie:

Correct.

David:

Okay, awesome. And just bring this up last minute. You might not know this, but HELOC, home equity line of credit, can you also do that on a business investment property?

Robbie:

I do not know. This is where the holes in my mortgage expertise start to come to the forefront.

David:

All right, I stumped you. Yes, I got one.

Robbie:

[inaudible 00:28:50].

David:

We'll look it up. We'll look it up after. And then I guess last question for you is any final words of wisdom for everyone listening in?

Robbie:

I think when it comes ... Your audience is obviously more focused on investment property. But there is a sentimental value to home ownership and it doesn't always have to be a purely financial consideration in terms of getting into it. It could be, "Hey, I like this house in Key West. I have to make it an investment property for the next several years but eventually I want to retire there. And it's worth me getting in the game now versus getting in the game later." Like I've said throughout this interview, mortgages are underwritten to very strict standards these days. I don't think a lender is going to extend a loan to you that they think you're not going to be able to repay. If they offer you something, I think it's safe and it is worth taking into account some of those qualitative factors in addition to the quantitative ones.

David:

Yeah, when I was buying my first home, a good friend, Irving, who was on this podcast, told me, "You're buying a home, not an investment. Treat it as a home. Don't worry. You're going to grow your family. Have memories in here. Treat it like that. Don't try to nickel and dime every single thing here." So let me ask you, is there anything else I'm forgetting to ask?

Robbie:

Nope. Sign up for the Chrisman Commentary Daily Newsletter, robchrisman.com. Check out the Chrisman Commentary Daily Mortgage News podcast. And if anybody has any follow up questions, I'm happy to answer them. robbie@robchrisman.com. That's Robbie with an I-E.

David:

Amazing. Amazing. All right, Robbie, thank you so much. This has always been fun chatting with you. Hopefully we will do it soon again. Thank you again.

Robbie:

Yes, sir. Thank you.

David:

Take care. All right, thanks again for tuning in with Robbie Chrisman. Join us on Loop It In where we have new episodes every two weeks. You could also review all the existing episodes at doorloop.com/podcast and we also sometimes have video versions like this one that you could also watch on doorloop.com/podcast. Or we also have webinars every two weeks, doorloop.com/webinars. Thanks again everyone. We'll see you on the next one.

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